At the Crossroads: Helping Young Adults get Unstuck

Your young adult isn’t lazy, broken, or “just unmotivated” and the old playbook doesn’t fit what families are facing right now. We sit down with Dr. Norm Thibault and Della Posner from At the Crossroads, a structured residential young adult transitional living program in St. George, Utah, to talk about what actually helps young people move from intensive treatment into independent living without falling off a cliff.

We get specific about what makes a program work at the organizational level: a stable team, a relational model, clear boundaries, and a culture where staff truly have each other’s backs. Then we zoom out to the biggest shift we’re seeing in young adult mental health: less “sex, drugs and rock and roll” and far more anxiety, depression, isolation, and neurodivergence. We talk about screens, social skill atrophy, and why polyvagal theory and co-regulation matter when young adults live behind devices. We also unpack the practical difference between anxiety on the spectrum and anxiety off the spectrum, and why individualized supported living beats one-size-fits-all programming.

Finally, we go straight at the parenting side: learning to be steady in the face of distress, resisting the urge to rescue, and letting young adults build the emotional muscle they’ll need for jobs, school, relationships, and daily life. If you care about behavioral health, failure to launch, attachment, and real-world independence skills, this conversation will give you language and clarity you can use immediately. Subscribe, share this with a parent who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Welcome And Program Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello folks. Thanks for joining us on Head Inside Mental Health, featuring conversations about mental health, substance use treatment with experts, advocates, and professionals from across the country sharing their thoughts and insights on the world of behavioral health care. I'm Todd Weatherly, your host, therapeutic consultant, and behavioral health expert. Joining me today are members of the leadership team with At the Crossroads, a structured residential young adult transitional living program in St. George, Utah, bridging the gap between intensive treatment and independent living for those managing mental health and co-occurring substitutes conditions. I'm pleased to welcome back to the show Dr. Norm Taibo, fellow Carolinian, I have to, I'm proud to say, uh, newish executive director, uh, and returning to the show. You can catch our previous interview exploring the neuroscience of attachment. Uh if you go to the website, we'll link it in the description there. He is joined by Della Posner, the admissions director, who is also a recent addition to the Crossroads team, but but not to the field, bringing a decade of experience in the young adult residential treatment space. I am so glad to have you both. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Thank you, Todd. We are we are happy to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Well, I you know, I I needed to bring Della in so that Norm just didn't, you know, he didn't take over the show. I mean, he did it last time.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Understandable, I mean, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

He's he's he's got he's got a lot of good stuff to to offer that Norm. Um and uh we miss him here in the Carolinas now that he's out there. He's been uh how long have you been out in Utah, Norm?

SPEAKER_05 1:35

You know what, Todd? I have been out, believe it or not, I have been in Utah since 1991. And so 35 years, but North Carolina will always be home. I mean, I you know, we we we worked out there and uh still have my family back there and uh barbecues back there, as are the tar heels.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

So you that's right. Um you were jumping back and forth for a minute. You were doing the dance between programs, and um now you're now you're exclusive to Utah, although I'm I'm sure we could use an at the crossroads here in the Carolinas. I'll just plant that seed there for a second.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

I appreciate that. It would not it would not take it would not take much for me to to to to want to do that either. I'll tell you that. North Carolina will always be home. Uh, you know, growing up down east is the best.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Well that kind of accent tends to come out a little bit the more you talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, the more you talk to another Carolinian, you should hear me talk to my grandmother. It's it gets it gets thick around here. Um,

Why Systems Burn Out Staff

SPEAKER_00 2:38

and I, you know, North Carolina is is beautiful and wonderful for many things. Unfortunately, a lot of mental health treatment is not among them. Um, I just recently was was looking at an article that they that somebody had published uh in the Citizen Times, our local local rag, if you will, and um, or one of them. And we they were talking about the things that you do to engage the community mental health system and the local management entity, otherwise known as FIA around here, and and all the steps you need to take and the frustrations people have and all the other things, and you know, ultimately they try to behave like an ACT team uh as it was originally designed, except they are understaffed and under-resourced, largely undertrained, they rely, and and this is not against peer support specialists at all, because I'm a huge fan of peer support, but to rely very largely, like if you're looking at high percentage marks, 70% of their team are peer support specialists without a lot of support themselves. Yeah, professional support. You know, and it's when you're talking about an act team, it's you really need to have people who are who are peers, who are professionals, that are collaborating and working with one another, that are supporting one another, because that peer support specialist, man, they've got a you know, they go home at night and they're carrying all that stuff. I remember even if you're not technically, you know, a a a peer, as it were. Um, I can remember the early days in behavioral health and normal appreciate this back in the back in the Three Springs days. Um he knows that campus well. Um I spent I I can remember coming home from those, you know, three, five days on shift all in a row, of course. You know, we started hanging out with with kids and uh you just had some had to put it someplace. Uh a lot of times it's not always the health, healthiest place. That's what hopefully a good place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

It's very, very challenging. You're absolutely correct, Todd. And and you know, we used to tell people we don't your family deserves your best, and so try not to take work home with you as much as possible because you know they deserve your energy and the best part of you. And boy, that that can be challenging when especially when you're a relational model and you know you're investing in relationships with the people that you're working with, and it's it's hard to have that level of empathy that's required of us, and at the same time have those boundaries in place that you just can't turn it off. And to your point, it it's really kind of interesting because I'm currently in consultation with two therapists in North Carolina who um they reached out and wanted to, it's not supervision because we're fully licensed clinicians, but they meet with me once a month to discuss their cases and because they just want to consult, they need some support in managing that. And so it's really interesting that you uh you know allude to that because I see the need. It's definitely there.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Present all day at work and then going home and continue to be present forever. That's yeah, exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

You know something about that, Della, don't you? Well, nah, what are you talking about? Um I I think you can't, you know, there's no you know, there's no getting into this field unscathed, uh, as it were. You know, and I think that Norm kind of just said it, which is don't you know, the just the act of the executive director telling you, hey, I you're d your family deserves you too. Try not to take this home. Do what you got to do to not take this home. We got it. You know, that's the other thing, is that you've you've also got a team there who's who's got it, who can handle it when others go away. So that they're not being called off hours and not being called consistently and routinely routinely, which happens in in these fields.

Building A Team That Holds Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 6:41

I mean, I think that you know, one of the questions I have for you guys is, you know, from the thousand-foot, ten thousand-foot view, if you will, what does it look like running at the crossroads a team that's dedicated towards, you know, helping doing a supported living program? It is definitely an act format, um, but it also has all these underpinning things that cause it to be successful, even with people that have pretty pretty complex conditions. Like, what does it look like from an organizational standpoint for you guys to facilitate that?

SPEAKER_05 7:14

You know, um, one of the blessings of at the crossroads that I've experienced, because this is my second time being with the program, I was originally with at the crossroads back around 2010-ish. Um as the clinician at the time. We currently have five therapists. Back then we had one and it was me. And you know, we it it was even then though, it was very relational to Odd. It was it was a wonderful uh culture because people were there to support one another. And and the owners of At the Crossroads, Brian and Shannon Virgin, were very intent on making sure that it was about what was healthiest for the kids, as opposed to you know running a program. And when you can develop a culture where you really are providing a service that's of benefit to other people and the other people feel it, you know, there's there's some significant rewards in that. And and that's that's continuing. You know, here I am 15 years later, back at the crossroads. And some of the people that I worked with, the program director, Christy Olson, um, some of the therapists, uh, Ryan Forbes, Mike Hench, some other major players on our team were coming on at the crossroads as I merged out. And they're still here. And when you have that longevity, I I'm not sure I may be wrong on this call, but I'm not sure of another young adult program that has a longevity that we have with the same people who have evolved and pivoted based on the needs of the kids, but who also maintain this culture um where you know we've got each other's back. Here's here's some examples of it. And and I can be rather pedantic, so you'll have to interrupt me, okay? So here's some here's some examples. Um we were talking just prior to uh the podcast today that I took my first real vacation this past week. Uh seven days out of state. Yeah. First day back. First thing he does for a long time. It's been years since I was able to do that. And I was meeting with our program director this morning, and of course, they intentionally kept me out of the loop on anything that may have happened while I was gone. They just did not need to, nor did they want to reach out to me. Um because they wanted to give me that time.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

And so that really did that hurt a little? I mean, did it hurt?

SPEAKER_05 9:45

Uh I was so grateful. Yeah, because I knew they I knew they had it. Yeah, probably. You know, I I probably came back at just the right time to catch it from the precipice. Okay, no, just kidding. But it was it was fantastic to to come back and know that okay, yeah, there wasn't issues, but they were taken care of, people have each other's back, we know what to expect. And and that speaks to the culture of a program that's been in it for the students for decades. Crossroads has been in it for decades, and so yeah, I love the people that I work with, and and sincerely, yesterday I told my wife, I said, it is so refreshing to return to a place and look forward to getting back to work. I really looked forward to getting back to work today, and uh I it's as much as I love the work I've done, that's the first time I've been able to say that in years.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

That's pretty awesome. Well, and uh, you know, that always translates to the program, which makes it a little easier on Della, you know, because she's not she's not thinking that something is happening in the program that feels a little troublesome and then telling parents everything's hunky-dory when she's doing an admission doing admissions work, which uh I think we've all found ourselves in the position of doing at times in this field when we cycle through different organizations and programs. And you know, one of the things you guys are you guys are longstanding. I mean, there's there's not a lot there's not a lot of young adult programs out there been around as long as you have, for one, which is why you can have the staffing uh that's been there for this huge amount of time for especially working in and behavioral health, honestly, you know, and dedicated to one

What Families Need To Hear

SPEAKER_00 11:30

organization. But you know, that leads me to a question no one asked Dello. You know, as families are coming in and they're they're asking about the program, it's like, you know, because I mean this is it's such a hard thing for them. You know, we see it as consultants all the time, but families are coming in. It's like, is this the place for my kid? And is it they're gonna do the right thing? And you know, they they they haven't worked through, you know, all the immature problems that they've got and the attachment issues the kid has with them and money and all the other stuff. And so like, what is what's this, what's this kind of under what's the undercurrent of the message that you're giving families as they come to you to think about ATC when they come in?

SPEAKER_03 12:10

I mean, honestly, similar to what Norm said, just it's a lot of, I mean, putting them at ease of that feel that Norm is saying that he feels like safe, that the team has got it, feels comfortable to step away and know that things are under control. That says so much. And knowing that everyone has each other's backs, the team, the clients like everything clients have staff back back and forth as well. Um, and just knowing that their kid is safe with us and that we've got them, that we've been doing this for so many years that nothing phases the staff anymore, nothing phases the team. It's like, okay, yes, this is huge and scary, and I hate that you're going through this, and we've got it, like we've done this. It'll be different with your kid, and we've got this, and we've got you. Um, and I think that's just I think the biggest piece is knowing that like, okay, the team, everyone is in support of each other no matter what. Um and that their kid is taken care of and supported.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

What's

Alumni Wins And Lasting Belonging

SPEAKER_00 13:15

your favorite like success story to share? Names excluded, of course. What's your favorite success that you know if it even if it's a momentary success or if it's a long-term success, what's what's one that you pull out of the basket to share with families?

SPEAKER_05 13:29

You know, I'll uh uh while Del is chewing on that, I I will tell you that there are a number. One of the things that when you're I've been around, as you said, Todd, for quite a while, and it's not one particular student, but at the crossroads you know offers at post-treatment outpatient services because many of our students choose to stay in the area once they've graduated from the program. They have a job, they've got a social network outside the program, they are um uh they've got usually have an apartment, some more mode of transportation, they've got a savings. And so many of them just go, why do I need to move on? I'll just go to college here, go to the trade school here. I've got it, I can just keep going here. Um, and so they stay in contact with us. And for me, one of the most rewarding aspects um we have students who have stayed in the area, gotten married, had children, and still come by at the crossroads to check in with us. Um to just say hi, to just, you know, we have students who have stayed in the area who participate in activities or who may come to a group. And they know that they're welcome to join in on that. And when you have that connection with young people who have all kinds of opportunities to do all kinds of things, but yet they still make a point to come by and just check in and say hi and let you say hi to their child or their significant other. That just speaks to the culture that uh that the folks around us have created and the relationship emphasis that's there. It's it's really a beautiful thing. To me, those are some of the most heartwarming stories. You know, you come in our clubhouse, and there's pictures there from one of our former students from when I was here 15 years ago, and he's a professional photographer, and some of his pictures are up in the clubhouse. Or you have some other students who contribute in different ways. We have a number of students who actually still work in the field now, they've gotten jobs in the field. Um, former students who've worked with us at the crossroads. And you know, those are the those are the kind of things you just look at a 10,000 foot level and go, man, this is a beautiful thing. Look at look at the lives that these guys are living and the the path they're charting. Yeah, yeah, and unfolds right in front of you. It's just a it's a pretty wonderful blessing.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

The calls we get of, I mean, from alumni too. I just got one a couple of days ago, just being like, oh, I graduated from there 12 years ago. And I they has a a family, a friend of his that needs ATC, and he's like, I wouldn't think of anything else for him other than you guys. And so like that says so much. No matter what that was last year or 12 years ago that they left, it's still like this changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Oh, and this is like just the endorsement from the endorsement and the fact that you've got so many people that experience belonging as a result of your program probably is a thing that speaks volumes and you can probably share with families, and that's that's where that goes. But uh you've you've got, you know, Norm being the researcher that he is, you've got longitudinal information, which is difficult to attain, honestly, in the field. Uh uh, it is it's very it's very difficult to attain. So, you know, coming in looking, uh both of you, maybe with a little uh I don't know if Norm's got fresh eyes or not, but Della might have some fresh eyes.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

Um You know, Todd, I'm not sure how to take that, sir.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

It's all in good fun. He's calling me old, Norm, not you. That's that's what it is.

The New Wave Of Young Adult Struggles

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Um what's the difference in your mind between the student that the the student that was there 12 years ago and now it's a family and is successful, and the and the resident uh or client that you're seeing coming in today?

SPEAKER_05 17:27

Uh, you know, I I uh from my chair, and I'd I'd love to get Della's thoughts on this as well. From my chair, what's really, really interesting, back in the day, um, when I was originally at the crossroads, the what we were dealing with, we we we kind of joke is it was the kids dealing with sex, drugs, rock and roll, the rebellious young adults, right? Um, and that has completely shifted. It's even shifted, Todd. You and I did a podcast a few years ago. I think even since then things have shifted dramatically. Um, you know, the the emphasis a couple years ago, and you know, in my my training and background has been quite a bit in attachment trauma, complex developmental trauma, and the neuroscience behind that. Um, and now what we're seeing is uh I I guess that's an appropriate word to use, an epidemic of autism spectrum disorder. Um uh depression.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

That's an interesting word to use.

SPEAKER_05 18:28

Wow, yeah, anxiety, um, lack of confidence uh amongst the young adult population. And it's kind of a tsunami that's hit us. And you know, as we take a look at what are the variables contributing to that, there's some evidence that, of course, the pandemic, the shutdown, had an impact on uh young people's ability to socialize, to engage with one another, to create a more isolation. I tend to align with uh the work of Dr. John Grant, which is speaks to devices, screens being such um a pervasive negative influence on each of us, that you know, uh his research has recently shown that uh screen usage by parents can actually reverse secure attachment and shift secure attachment to insecure attachment just by parents being on their devices. And so to to go back to answer your question, I think what's changed is it's it used to be sex drugs rock and roll, now it's real lack of confidence struggles socially, which then exacerbate the anxiety of picking up on social cues, which leads to depression and isolation, a lack of motivation, and a lack of confidence in an ability to succeed at college, at trade school, uh socially. And so that's what we're seeing more of anything right now. It's an interesting, enormous pivot in our in our field.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

And then also this fear of to do anything different, because this is all I've known. So why it's scary to step out of my comfort zone. And so I'm just gonna stay in this versus try to get the job, or I get the job and something hard happens at work. So let me revert back into my my cocoon and go back in my fear and comfort again versus the pushing through and the bouncing back. And so it kind of reiterates that feeling about themselves.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

That causes me to circle back to this kind of operations question because and I I've I've got ulterior motives. Um I was just at a I was just at a conference uh and presented on uh at the autism research conference, and we had a good time down with the New Directions folks. And I talked about how, you know, I think it's this interesting word that you used in epidemic. And we could probably dive into the weeds about, you know, what causes a person to suffer from being on the spectrum or being the neurodivergent spectrum, and um, what are the factors, et cetera, et cetera. It's not a simple answer. People look for sample answers, and it's not a simple answer. But we are getting, we're more sophisticated in diagnosing it. We're, you know, more readily, so we've got this increase of being able to diagnose. And I think that we're also seeing an increase of people who are suffering from conditions that would register in this neurodiverse territory, right? Um but the other thing that's that's come out of that uh sophistication in these approaches is that we're learning that you you might have a person who suffers from this anxiety and suffers from uh you know the kind of failure to launch uh characteristics that we see in young adults. But if you treat it the same way we've been treating uh a mental health condition, though they they clearly Suffer from anxiety. We could dig out the DSM and we can check the boxes and we can put a you know a code down and says, yeah, this condition is clinically significant enough for us to say that they have a diagnosable mental health condition. It's anxiety, but if you treat it anxiety in a person who suffers who's on the spectrum versus a person who's suffering from it outside of being on the spectrum, they are two different treatment modalities. You can't treat them the same.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Um, because they're the way that they come about experiencing is very different. How are you managing that in your programming right now?

SPEAKER_05 22:39

You know,

Treating Neurodivergent Anxiety Differently

SPEAKER_05 22:40

part of it is understanding um our clinicians, right? The gifts that they have. And one of the blessings is we have clinic, all of our clinicians have over 20 years experience. And so as we take a look at assigning a student, uh is this more of a uh a neurodivergent meaning client? If so, then they'll work better with a different clinician and maybe in a different house. We take a look at the environment. As you're aware, Todd, we have multiple houses where our students live. And we really try to uh pair them up with students who would be most like them to support them. Because many of our students are, as you well know, before they come to the program, they are isolated. They do struggle with social cues and social skills. And so having them be with other people who might be of assistance to them, who've kind of gone through the program, who've learned some things, and to feel a part of that connection. One of the one of the challenges we have, and this speaks back to this whole device thing, is Dr. Stephen Forge's work on polyvagal theory teaches us that at the preamble to any relationship, to any treatment is safety. We have to feel safe with one another. It's being with like-minded people and feeling part of that village, right? Um one of the challenges we have is the allure of screens, which leads us more tour isolation, which means that according to polygle theory, we're not co-regulating, and we need co-regulation so that even in this video call, as we're talking, right? The the prosody of the voice, the eye contact, the body gestures, the relationships we have with one another, because we've known each other, each of us for for quite a while, you know, all of that helps us to regulate one another as we converse right now. But when you're on a device or you're just gaming by yourself, you're not getting co-regulation. And the more we isolate on these devices, the less likely we are to have our anxiety get dampened to also learn about our own processes. Part of the challenge, Todd, is how much of this challenge that kids have these days is capacity versus volition. Right? Right. Back at back in the sex drugs rock and roll days, a lot of it was volition. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

But today they had the capacity.

SPEAKER_05 25:23

Yeah, absolutely. They just didn't want to do what was being offered or suggested by parents and others, right? But now it it becomes about capacity. Right? It's do they have the capacity to go out, interview for a job, get a job, and maintain it in that social arena? And that feels like a high wire act for many of our kids. And so we have to take a look at their history. We have to take a look at so many factors as we're looking at dealing with anxiety that's neurodivergent as opposed to an anxiety that's uh non-neurodivergent. There's a lot that goes into it, just as you said, and you have to approach them differently.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

And that's where it's so helpful too, that we are such like the small program that we are, we're able to be so individualized for each person. It's not like you come in, this is how we are going to treat anxiety, this is how we'll treat you on the spectrum. This is the it's very much we're meeting them where they are and helping figure out what's next for them, what's the best step for them, versus these are the phases you need to complete to work through before you're able to get a job or before you're able to take a class. Like we want them to start experiencing any type of win, small or big, from the get-go, no matter what. And so let's help them. If that's getting a job right off the bat, great. Let's help you do that. If it's taking it slow and easing in, that's okay too. Like let's figure out what's right for each individual person versus the program as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

It's almost like there's a double down here in that it's probably it might be a little bit both it's volition and capacity, because without the capacity, you also don't have the willingness. It's like I'm not sure. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

No thanks. I don't want to do that. Yeah, it's scary to try.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

So you know, why should I bother? You know, and and so convincing them that it's worth it for one, convincing them that it's worth it, that's I don't know, it may be it it's different. I won't call it easier. I was tempted to call it easier, but it's different than helping a person actually develop capacity.

unknown 27:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

You know, because you know, it you you're what you're doing is you're helping them train a muscle.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Essentially.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

It's like, hey, by the way, this works. You're gonna need to like be around other people for it to work. So let's do that in small doses first and work our way towards something that feels manageable, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Yeah. Like I there's someone, someone right now that is actually to be coming to us fairly soon. And he, his therapist at the program he's at right now, it's like it's helping him understand like you you have all of these big plans and hopes for your future and things you're excited about and goals, but it's the everything in between to get there that he hasn't been able to grasp the concept of like, oh, I need to do these not fun things as an adult to get to do those things that I'm excited about as an adult.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

It's a very ADHD program right there. You know what I mean? It's like, I have these great, wonderful plans. I have to do something. Oh right.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

You're like, oh, wait, I need to clean my room so I can get like yeah, wait a minute. I need to make money to be able to go understand any of this right now.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

So it's very much like, hey, buddy, you're she said to him, like, you're you're not employable the way you are right now, even though you have these jobs that you want to get, that's great. But let's let's start a little bit back here first in the easy.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

So yeah.

Staying Present Through The Mess

SPEAKER_05 28:51

The other thing I think that also is is helpful for the young people we work with is knowing that we're gonna hang in there with them. Because it gets messy, as you well know, Todd. It can get really messy. So messy so we we have a we have a student who um has been with us a year and he had been kicked out of previous programs. And he had done so, he had he had intentionally done that by using you know pejorative racial statements, just vulgar things. Um and he tried that year with us, you know. Uh, he called me names I haven't heard since I was in junior high. Um, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

We were called all those names already. It doesn't bother us. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 29:42

What else do you got? I literally started laughing when he said that. And I said, Well, I really haven't heard that since junior high. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Anyway, good one.

SPEAKER_05 29:53

But we hung with him, you know, and it was a non-judgmental, non-shaming approach. We just hung with him. And he, to his credit, all credit to him, he said, you know, I uh I realized you guys aren't kicking me out, you're not giving up on me, you're not, and so he just kind of said, you know what, maybe I should do this. And here we are a year later, and that young man is taking off. I mean, he all credit to he has done a lot of work, and that this is not hyperbole. He's lost probably 80 pounds on his own working, has held out uh internships at radio stations, sports radio stations, because that's a passion of his, and now works at the university here uh in the athletic department.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

I should have him on the show. Yeah, he's like anything should be on the show. You can extend the invite to him for me and see if he can't.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

Yeah, we'll let him know. We'll let him know. And and you know, again, it's just he decided for himself that okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna actually try this and just not expend my energy on getting kicked out. But we had to show him that we were willing to hang with him through the messy parts because that's where that security and the confidence comes from. That now we're not gonna give up on you, we're gonna hang in, and you matter to us. The difference between you and us is we think you're worth it. And we'll do that. And so I I think sometimes it's it can be challenging and overwhelming for programs, understandably so, you know, with legislative uh issues that we all have to face and deal with. It can be challenging for programs when you're dealing with people who want results pretty quickly, and none of no programs are inexpensive, and so there's a lot of pressure there. But when they see that, hey, we're gonna hang in there with you, we're just gonna be here when you decide you want what we're offering. We're right here. We know we we surrender that we can't make you do it. And to his credit, he decided he wanted to give it a shot. And here he is a year later, and we couldn't be more proud of the work he's done for himself.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

He has said all of those things too. When I was lost there, he was like, This place has just they stuck through it with me. Like they I hate how I started, but I'm so glad I did because they I they care, they love me, and I'm glad they stuck through it.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I think that there is this moment, you know, it's that um moment of clarity, moment of insight where a person gets, you know, they're going through a treatment process and they're they're you know contemplative, pre-contemplative on the change scale a lot of times. Um so but there there's this moment where not only they can they can see that engaging might be worth it, you know, and and they make a decision. There's this there's this, you know, this this the the switch flips and all of a sudden they've decided it's like, okay, I'm gonna give it a go. Um and and people ask me, you know, well, so you know, tell me what the success rate is. I said, well, the longer a person sticks with it, whatever plan that they need, you know, they've gone through this step of care and this step of care, but the people who really make it, and I'm and I'm talking very high percentages, are the ones that that stick it out and do their plan and and you know, follow a continuum of care, especially when they get to these transitional levels, it's like don't exit that care, don't exit that support prematurely. Like there's you're building muscle memory. It's very hard to build muscle memory in just a quick moment. There's no there's no pill that builds muscle memory, and that's gonna be the most salient, you know, belonging and all the other pieces that feel good that cause a person to feel safe. But then there's also like, and I wake up in the morning and I make myself meals and I go shopping and I like pay my bills and I do all the things that adults do. You know, I my one of my favorite quotes is you know, what do what do you do before enlightenment? Chop wood, carry water. What do you do after enlightenment? You chop wood, carry water. Yeah, we're still here on the planet, man. We still gotta make a living and do the

Coaching Parents To Stop Rescuing

SPEAKER_00 34:11

things. Um do you see how do like since I mean Norm's Norm's background on attachment and research and everything he has, and I know that he's spent a ton of time working with parents. What do you see from parents that are like on the other, you know, on the other side of a process like for this young man in the last year, or for the clients that are coming in and they get to this decision point? What are you coaching parents through the most? And what's the reaction you see? You know, where is that magic moment for them? What's that look like?

SPEAKER_05 34:45

You know, great question. And and there's we could do a whole podcast on gen X parenting right now. And so that's that's you that's you and me, Todd, right? I mean, right. Um, and so people asking us to write the book.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

It's like, yeah, we if we cared, I mean, we'd write a book.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

Well, and that's do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Going on vacation instead. Come on, Norman. Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:12

The the Gen X parent, I'm totally generalizing, right? But if it was not, we were not raised in an environment that dealt a whole lot with emotions and feelings and therapy. I tell the story that when my wife was in elementary school, uh, she was raised in Las Vegas. One day she went to school, she got off the bus, and they had to walk around a chalk out line of the milkmen who had been murdered that morning in the parking lot of the elementary school. And it was go around, get in class, come on, get on with class. No counselors were brought in, no notices were sent home. I mean, you know, this was late 70s, early 80s. And these were not things that were talked about, you know. Um, because we talk about, you know, what's goodness. And so and let me be clear, the body wasn't there, it was just a chalk outline. Anyway, same thing. Yeah, right. So it it wasn't ingrained in us, and so now the the general theory is that the pendulum has gone so far the other way with us as Gen X parents that we really want to help our kids, and that we almost feel guilty for what our parents didn't talk to us about, and so you know, we really we struggle with allowing our children to struggle. I guess is the best way to put it. You know, one of my tasks, one of our tasks is to teach parents how to learn to be comfortable with their child's uncomfortable feelings, to stay steady in moments of distress. We know that that is one of the most important variables for successful outcomes and programs is parental capacity, their ability to manage their stuff when their child is not managing their stuff, and their child could be 12 or 35. It's not different.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Bearing witness to distress, distress management. Is that what you think?

SPEAKER_05 37:17

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so you you know, you talk about Todd, you talk about flexing those emotional muscles, it's the same thing for parents, and a lot of times that is attachment based. We're parenting based on what we took from our parents. And oftentimes, as I've done and I'm sure you've done, we all do, Della does. We go, eh, when I'm a parent, I'm gonna do it a little bit differently this way, and it does inform the way that we parent. And so taking a look at our own attachment styles and managing our own anxiety when our children's lives are a little bit upside down or a lot upside down is important. Don't rescue, don't remove outcomes that can be painful, and allow them to build those emotional muscles, just as you said. And that does take time because we're not just talking about behaviors, we're talking about neurodevelopmental healing, which is the process myelination, you know, the neural sub substrate between the midbrain and the lower prefrontal cortex, creating new connections and creating capacity for continued growth. All of that takes time, and so helping parents understand that we're not serving them by not allowing them to go through difficult moments.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Um yeah. My my my kids will cite back to you. It's like, yeah, dad would say, Oh, yeah, it's gonna be all all right, or it'll be terribly, terribly, horribly wrong. One of the two, I don't know which.

unknown 38:42

But I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

But I'm here, you know, we're gonna be in it together. Like, that's how it is. Now, they'll you're ever generation. Would you echo any of that? Like, yeah, would you what would you say?

SPEAKER_03 38:53

I mean, I think from like the parents that I talk with regularly, my own parents, like it's it's yeah, I mean, I will say it's similar of a lot of like we're gonna do things differently than our parents did. And I think for me, I mean, it was obviously different for me with my mom grew up, I grew up with my mom in the field as well. So it was kind of like, okay, starting to make those shifts as a family when my sister went to treatment and all of that. So being able to kind of have that lens, but I think it was more of when teenage hood and past that is when like our family kind of okay, we we've got this, we've have each other's backs, we know how to support it. But then leading into like me parenting my two-year-old daughter, obviously, I'm still figuring that out. I'm still rescuing her from distress because I think I still have to a little bit, maybe. Um, but yeah, it's really figuring out. I it's it's different for sure. I think we're a lot more in tune with wanting to make sure we know that we're we're parenting well. We're we're going to lead her into the future well versus that okay, let's we don't talk about it and move on, scraper me, move on. So figuring out that that middle ground.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

There's a little bit of a balance between this, right? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yeah, well, and you're I think Norm, you were in the field before you had kids, am I right? Yes. So was I. And so, like, we're looking at Norm is a little older than I am. Just I just want to lay that out there.

SPEAKER_05 40:29

I appreciate you, Todd. We're pushing. Why don't you go ahead and talk about my mama? Go ahead too.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

We're we're we're still Gen X territory. You're another generation down, but it's uh I think it would be an interesting conversation to have about you know people who are who become parents who also, you know, kind of grew the grew up professionally at least in the treatment world. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Um there are so many days that I question, I'm like, wait, but if I respond this way, then her attachment, she's she's not gonna be responding the right way. Like, I want to make sure I don't mess that up, or vice versa. And I'm like, I it's literally a two-minute decision, it'll be okay. Like, what is it if you have so many for every like bad response, you as long as you have like two out of ten or something like that, it's like okay, that's what matters here.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah, you know, or whatever, right? Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 41:26

Well, we the bet the best parents are attuned about 40%

Screens And Present But Absent Parenting

SPEAKER_05 41:30

of the time to their yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

Yeah, like okay, I'm I'm okay here.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

To your point about screens, my my kids when they were when they were like, you know, 12, 13, 14, whatever, like the they had it like, don't phone in dad, dad. And I put my phone away, you know, and I because I was at work or whatever, you know, we have our excuses. And it's like, okay, fine. Why I'm not phoning and daddy. And now, you know, I'll look at them as like, don't phone in child, you know.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

So yeah, yeah. Well, this this, you know, John Grant, who I mentioned earlier in the podcast, he he has suggested a new diagnostic uh formulation for present but absent parenting. We are physically present but emotionally and cognitively absent as a result of being on our screens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Well, I mean, we we've got so much territory, we could just rabbit hole in with this. I would love to spend a lot more time to you. Let's make sure that we, you know, let's do it again. Let's pick some regular topics and let's just keep going with this conversation. I love what you guys are doing out there. Um, you work with the folks that you know, honestly, we need more programs like that around the country because, you know, one of the things we run into is like, well, Utah's a little far for this family. They don't want to go that far, whatever it is. They're on the West Coast, they don't want to come east, East Coast don't want to go west. Um, but when you've got a program like what you guys are doing, that's got the longevity that you have, um, that's also able to support people people with some pretty complex conditions in a supported independent living environment. That's just gold in my book. Just gold. So um I really appreciate you, both of you, Della and Norm. Thank you for being on the show. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 43:20

I'm very grateful for you. And and you know, Todd, sincerely, thank you for the way that you, you know, you shine a light on the good people in our field, and we need that. And so grateful for uh that's right. Yes, and and there's plenty of it. There's plenty of it. So we're very grateful for the service you provide to our field as well. You are so well respected and loved.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Well, I appreciate that. This has been Head Inside Mental Health with Dr. Norm Taibo and Della Posner with at the Crossroads. You guys are great. We look forward to being with you next time.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Oh follow it home.